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DiscussionWhy couldn't Martin and the others take statements? (self.TheMagnusArchives)

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[–]your_local_stalker_The Stranger 37 points38 points  (5 children)

If you're talking about mag 100 it's because Jon wasn't in the institute at the time. And if I've understood correctly the others are more research staff? But it's also just the case that not every statement is linked to the supernatural and for the sake of the story everything we hear is (as stated in one of the q&a episodes). So they probably get a lot of statements that just don't need to be recorded on the tapes.

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    [–]your_local_stalker_The Stranger 13 points14 points  (3 children)

    Yeah true, but the compelling is tied to the archivist in my understanding, so Jonny boy can do it wherever essentially because he's where that power stems from. Its also implied that Gertrude was able to do it to a degree as well, I don't remember what episode but I think it was monster pig? Or the one with the beetle.

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      [–]your_local_stalker_The Stranger 12 points13 points  (0 children)

      Just checked that wiki for the episode, I haven't listened in a while and you're totally right about that.

      The only thing I can think to say is that he was writing to Gertrude, the archivist, and had been in contact with her before as they're friends or at least allies with one another. If he's already made statements it'd be much easier to compel him again? It's the same way that people write letters to Jonah Magnus I suppose? Dream logic!

      [–]DisposableSaviourResearcher 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      In MAG92, when Jon tries to compel Elias to confess to the murders of Gertrude and Leitner, Elias says, “You know, even Gertrude never properly tried to compel me.” So, yeah, Gertrude could compel statements.

      [–]Terminus-99 27 points28 points  (4 children)

      It seems the Eye really does help when writing statements of the supernatural. This is from MAG157:

      You must forgive me, Gertrude, for any typing and spelling errors that might be in this message. My hands are shaking quite badly and my fingers… aren’t what they were. Even so, just knowing where this is going, this statement… I can feel the Eye’s power on me, be it ever so slight. Steadying me. Helping the words flow.

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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        [–]Terminus-99 16 points17 points  (1 child)

        Sorry, it was 157.

        Maybe it is as simple as spoken statements needing stronger, more active compelling from an avatar to work, while it is more passive, requiring less direct influence if is written. We know that actually speaking the statements has negative consequences in the form of nightmares to the victims, which Jon visits and which presumably keep feeding the Eye indefinitely.

        Martin and the others’ mistake was probably deciding to record those statements instead of letting them write them. Or maybe those people in particular said they preferred to record rather than write, idk.

        [–]Illidan-the-AssassinThe Lonely 14 points15 points  (0 children)

        It's not only because John wasn't physically present, it's because he was contained by The Stranger and his power was suppressed

        [–]Ok_Habit_6783Archivist 23 points24 points  (1 child)

        It's about intention. Massive spoiler warning below:

        When it comes to feeding the eye, or any fear for that matter, intentions matter. In episode 157 (don't quote me) Adelard decker writes to Gertrude and the eye feeds on his dying words with his intentions to actively make a statement to the eye. When John, Gertrude, or any of the staff read a statement in pursuit of feeding the eye, the eye will help as if drinking from a waterfall of horror. In EP 100, John was off galavanting and feeding the eye elsewhere. So back in the institute, they were just doing their job, not feeding their patron. Over half of them didn't even want to be there at the time. So the eye fed elsewhere, leaving the institute without power.

        [–]in-the-widening-gyreThe Stranger 5 points6 points  (6 children)

        It's not just that he wasn't in the institute -- he's away from the institute plenty throughout the series and, as you point out, he's completely able to compel statements at those times and there seems to be no other interruptions with the usual functioning of statement-giving. Especially later in S3 when he's on his trip to America.

        There's something else going on during 100, however -- At that time Jon was being held by Nikola, so I assumed that she held him in such a way as to cut him off from other Powers. In 99 Jon is kidnapped by Breekon and Hope, then in 100 we see Martin, Melanie and Basira unable to take statements, and then in 101 the Distortion frees Jon, so 100 is the only time Jon's actually being detained by another Power.

        Interestingly, though, I don't think we see many other instances of Martin, Melanie Basira or Tim taking live statements at other times. There's Martin taking Tim's statement in 104, after Jon is free, and Martin taking Jess Tyrell's I-guess-statement about having her statement forcibly taken by Jon. Both of those are when Jon is free, and somewhat special circumstances themselves (someone already Eye aligned, and someone giving a statement about a statement). All the others are taken by Jon. So we don't have great comparison examples for their normal ability to take statements.

        [–][deleted]  (5 children)

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          [–]in-the-widening-gyreThe Stranger 3 points4 points  (4 children)

          Yeah, but he compels Michael after Michael gets there and "frees" him. Just when he does Michael says "[Giggles] The Eye watches, and the Stranger conceals, but me… I lie, Archivist. I am the throat of delusion incarnate. They can’t hide you from me." -- so there you go, that's why Michael can find him but Elias can't. And like Elias is less important to the Eye than Jon is, Jon's the Archivist, Elias is using his influence and knowledge to control the Archivists, but the Archivist is the actual role the Eye needs to have filled.

          The other thing is the whole thing works on dream logic, none of it has strict rules. It's about feel and brain taste, not being consistent to a particular system.

          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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            [–]in-the-widening-gyreThe Stranger 1 point2 points  (2 children)

            I mean I think from what Michael said and from Nikola's MO, we can say she was probably intentionally, with her Stranger confusion and Stranger eye-antagonism, she would likely have been doing something fear-magic-wise to keep him hidden from Elias. And Michael does say "the Stranger conceals and the Eye watches ... [but] they can't hide you from me" so I think that indicates that at least Michael thinks she WAS hiding him from the Eye. Michael ungags him sure, but when he's in Michael's power he's not in the Stranger's anymore, so it's reasonable to extrapolate that that hiding wouldn't continue. Unless Michael also hid him, which is possible, and Michael also dies soon enough that if Michael was cutting him off from the Eye also, that's resolved before we hear anything more about it. And Helen gives him a lift back so we can assume Helen isn't worried about it. Though I would imagine that the Eye can't see into the Distortion's corridors.

            This is gonna fall under dream logic. This is not something that is clearly delineated in the show. You can either go with "sure" about it, or your can be frustrated. Unfortunately, those are basically your options. No explanation is going to be verifiable (including the ones I've proposed) because if they were, that would just ... be the accepted explanation.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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              [–]in-the-widening-gyreThe Stranger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              OK, I would say, Nikola was hiding him from the eye as a stranger agent, or that's the explanation that I roll with. No, there's no specific explanation.

              [–]Katstories21 4 points5 points  (1 child)

              Gertrude did do live recordings. Two of them. I won't list for spoilers but they are there.

              [–]MrMattBlack 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              To my understanding, it's tied to the figure of The Archivist or another Eye Avatar, like Jonah Magnus. In MAG100, Jon wasn't around, and while Martin, Tim and Basira(I think?) have all been touched by the Eye as members of the Institute, they are not "conduits" of its power.

              Also, the recordings of MAG100 are live statements, instead of the seemingly more usual written statements. I think we've seen people struggle even when talking with Jon, before he compels in giving a statement or starting the statement.

              I reason the Eye needs to compel by either a direct question or the usual [Statement begins] stuff when dealing with an oral recollection of the accounts, while written statement can be helped with less "active" intervention and just passive nudges in the right direction. Do mind that writing something is generally easier than talking about it, because until you present the written text, you are the only "receptor" of what you're writing, so stuff like social anxiety or stress about what the others could think is less present or something.

              It's either that, or, since you talked about MAG157 in other comments, the fact that Adelard was writing to Gertrude herself, at the time the archivist, or just Adelard mistakingly believing his calm is a result of the Eye.

              [–]the_ghost_dmThe Lonely 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              The clarifying influence comes from the archivist; conciously and unconsciously. In MAG100, the Archivist was gone; not just out of the archives, but outside the eye's sight. Elias couldn't see him while he was kidnapped, he was completely gone.

              With the Archivist gone, the archives couldn't get proper statements, they were incoherent, messy stories.

              But, we do see that the others are able to take statements, in MAG 142 Martin takes the statement of Jon's victim. It's not as official, he doesn't get her name or say it's a statement, but it most certainly counts as a statement, she even admits to having told Martin more than she wanted to.

              [–]MsKetchup 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              There is an entire, somewhat comical episode about this later on but essentially yea, without the [compel] aspect of the avatar it falls apart in a way Gertrude having them write it down didn't, or people writing down in general doesn't.

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Personally, I disagree on your interpretation that they couldn't take statements in the episode you're referring to. To be clear I understand why you interpret it that way but Gertrude did sit near the old statement givers, in an adjacent room so that she could allow their experiences to count for the eye, but the fact that she wasn't directly involved in it allowed for her to not give them the nightmares most statements give.

              The written statements to Gertrude were read by her at a later date and that counted as a statement (once again no longer affecting the senders dreams bc they weren't in person). Same as Jon reading the old statements.

              The others trying to do statements was awkward, yeah, but I believe that to be the fact that Jon wasn't there to center the statement holders and subconsciously compel them to be coherent. The assistants are enough to take the statements but they also aren't as clearly of the eye so don't have that calming presence for the statement givers. (I believe at some point in a Q+A that the stories they took were all somewhat real, even if they were ridiculously told, so it's not their validity that afflicts it)

              I hope I've written this properly, I enjoy discussing the aspects of the powers and how they work.

              [–]AlienAngelChocochiThe End 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              that season q&a clears it up a bit- I recommend listening to it

              [–]utsgeek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I always assumed that it wasn't that they couldn't take statements, the whole of MAG100 was to show that not every statement was an avatar encounter, and they really did have to wade through a lot of weirdos

              [–]Asteria-NyxThe Lonely 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I think that while the Magnus Institute does hold a bit of power to compel people to give statements, John, being an avatar, enhances the power 10 fold when he's there.

              My headcanon is that John gained so much power that the eye itself didn't have to work all that much on it's own to get victims, it gets a majority of it's power through John.

              During Mag100 John isn't there, and the compelling power the eye has over the institute has waned dramatically (my theory). The Eye doesn't really need to be tied to it much anymore, it has The Archivist to feed it now.